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Big Brother is watching you



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 2nd 04, 05:35 AM
John Navas
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[POSTED TO alt.cellular.gsm - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In on Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:39:19
-0700, matt weber wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:28:26 GMT, John Navas
wrote:

In on Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:16:56
-0700, matt weber wrote:


AT&T is obviously using signal timing, and i doubt it is +/- 3 meters.
I doubt they know the position of their BTS that well!


Why not? Even a cheap consumer GPS can easily achieve that kind of accuracy.


WRONG. A cheap GPS cannot achieve that sort of accuracy. You need
WAAS to get anywhere near 3 meters.


WAAS is available in cheap consumer GPS units; e.g., Magellan eXplorist 100,
$77 at Compuplus.com

The other problem is you need a good view of the sky for a GPS work,


A reasonable view.

which makes it unusable in many areas (like indoors, in parking
garages, urban canyons, etc.)


My Magellan SporTrak GPS works fine under trees and in urban canyons.

If what you said was true, car navigation systems would be a whole
lot less expensive then they are, they could be pure GPS. The ones
that work well are not!

. The reality is those systems incorporate either Inertial Navigation
(3 axis solid state accelerometer), or Dead reckoning (Vss input from
the vehicle for distance, and a gyro for direction).


A Magellan SporTrak with DirectRoute software costs as little as $300, and
works great.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular
  #24  
Old October 2nd 04, 08:47 AM
David Joseph Bonnici
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Wondering how they can find you ?!

Well using the time advance method is not accurate due to reflections.
It is not the first time that I am just under the base station and I
have 20 time advances marked.

What is really done is to feed several time advance readings from
several base stations to a neural network. The neural network acts as
a sort of a filter to those readings. Training the neural network
however requires some time since training involves "you" going around
with a mobile and a GPS gathering readings.

Sounds simple and infact it is.

David Joseph Bonnici
  #26  
Old October 2nd 04, 03:11 PM
Jer
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David Joseph Bonnici wrote:

Wondering how they can find you ?!

Well using the time advance method is not accurate due to reflections.
It is not the first time that I am just under the base station and I
have 20 time advances marked.

What is really done is to feed several time advance readings from
several base stations to a neural network. The neural network acts as
a sort of a filter to those readings. Training the neural network
however requires some time since training involves "you" going around
with a mobile and a GPS gathering readings.

Sounds simple and infact it is.

David Joseph Bonnici



As I understand it, this is how the True Position system works.

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
  #27  
Old October 3rd 04, 03:05 AM
David Joseph Bonnici
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This is however still experimental.

The same system is also used for credit cards. Lets say that for
example you use your credit card two times a week and you never spend
over 50 Dollars each time.

A neural network is trained with this data:- i.e. amount of money
spent, what it is purchased if possible, where it is purchase and the
time of purchase.

Lets say, they have pickpocketed you and you did not notice it. Lets
assume also that they use your credit card to pay porn sites.

The neural network will notice that this does not form part of the
normal chaos and so will issue a warning at the bank that something
smelly is happening. Then bank officers will call you on the mobile
upoun the report generated.

Interesting no. This is also a form of big brother.

David Joseph Bonnici
  #29  
Old October 3rd 04, 04:09 PM
Jer
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matt weber wrote:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 08:10:51 -0500, Jer wrote:


matt weber wrote:

On 1 Oct 2004 14:46:36 -0700, (Elise05) wrote:



If the carrier uses signal timing to determine your position, this
would mean that your phone would have to be pinging the tower on a
periodic basis. Is this correct? If so, how often does the phone
trasmit to the tower when in standby mode?

--Eric

The requirement to locate the phone only exists while it is active,
i.e. a call to 911.

As a practical matter, GSM networks poll phones periodically to see
where they are in relatively general times, and if they are still on
the network, happens 2-4 times in 24 hours, depending upon the
carrier. The FCC regulations in the US make most devices relative
immune, but outside the USA, often the radio or TV will let loose with
the 217 Hz buzz when it happens. When you hear it, it means either
your phone is about to ring, or it was just polled.



I must have one of those cheap radios in my car, I hear it regularly.
There's even one place where I hear it every time I drive through - must
be a weak spot in network coverage.


No, devices intended for Mobil use are exempt from the relevant FCC
regulation regarding conducted and radiated emissions. The result is a
Car radio is exempt, a table radio is not.



Funny that you mention table radios, because I've heard the 217 phantom
on many of those as well. It's really not a problem for me as it's more
a precursor to another call going to vmail.

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
  #30  
Old October 3rd 04, 04:26 PM
Jer
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David Joseph Bonnici wrote:

This is however still experimental.

The same system is also used for credit cards. Lets say that for
example you use your credit card two times a week and you never spend
over 50 Dollars each time.

A neural network is trained with this data:- i.e. amount of money
spent, what it is purchased if possible, where it is purchase and the
time of purchase.

Lets say, they have pickpocketed you and you did not notice it. Lets
assume also that they use your credit card to pay porn sites.

The neural network will notice that this does not form part of the
normal chaos and so will issue a warning at the bank that something
smelly is happening. Then bank officers will call you on the mobile
upoun the report generated.

Interesting no. This is also a form of big brother.

David Joseph Bonnici



Well, it's like I said, this sounds exactly like how the True Position
system works. I do know that when a TP system is installed, calibrating
the network is key to it's function. Each and every street all across
the coverage territory is drive tested w/GPS, so that the RF
characteristics of a radio transmitter are known (and therefore
predictable) from any particular location. A drive tester I met was
equipped with a roof-mounted Trimble GPS and a call simulator all tied
into a laptop with a full-time active wireless network connection.
Presumably the simulated calls were constantly being analysed by the
BTS, and the GPS coordinates were being recorded into a database where
an overlay to a street map was created. Personally, I found the whole
deal quite interesting and seems to offer plausiblility to the idea of
it actually working as intended.

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
 




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